# Zelensky, the UPA and the Ukraine-Poland historical dispute - Original post: https://www.twitter.com/i/status/2069827617554133308 - Source account: [@TomaszGrzywacz3](https://x.com/TomaszGrzywacz3) - Source language: French - Target language: English - Duration: 6:33 - Published: 2026-06-24 - Machine translated. Check the original before quoting. - Canonical URL: https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute - Original-language version: https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/fr/zelensky-l-upa-et-la-crise-m%C3%A9morielle-entre-l-ukraine-et-la-pologne.md ## Transcript [0:00](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute) It's a real war. The proof is that Volodymyr Zelensky won't go to Poland to talk about the reconstruction of Ukraine. [0:07](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=7) It's strange, isn't it? He prefers to send his prime minister and it's... [0:12](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=12) When I don't understand this wasteland party, I wonder if it's possible to rebuild countries. [0:16](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=16) It is still very complicated to rebuild friendships that history has trampled on. [0:22](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=22) And that is something that has been coming back for 80 years between Ukraine and Poland. [0:26](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=26) Let me explain. Last Friday, the Polish president, the conservative Karol Nawrocki, stripped Zelensky of the Order of the White Eagle, which is the highest distinction of the country, of Poland. [0:39](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=39) A decoration that is truly far from insignificant, since it had been awarded to Zelensky in April 2023. [0:45](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=45) And which truly marked the exceptional solidarity between the two countries. [0:49](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=49) It was the moment when Poland was welcoming millions of Ukrainians and giving weapons without counting to its Ukrainian neighbor. [0:58](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=58) In response, Zelensky, out of panache or pride, admits having to immediately return the famous medal. [1:04](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=64) Then in his wake, his foreign minister, his intelligence chief, and his ambassador to Warsaw, all returned their Polish decorations. [1:12](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=72) And why this collective tossing of medals, because that is really what it looks like, of Polish medals, well, in late May. [1:19](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=79) And I'll say it now, I feel that—I'm not going to make only friends, but one must always be honest in pantheonism, Marc Bloch feels, one must always finally look at the truth—I think Zelensky made a huge blunder. [1:31](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=91) At the end of May, he named a Ukrainian military unit after the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, in other words the UPA, of infamous memory, I will tell you about that, an unambiguous reference to a fascist-leaning nationalist organization of the Second World War, held responsible for the deaths of 100,000 Polish civilians, [1:49](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=109) I do mean 100,000 in Volhynia, which Poland considers ethnic cleansing—that's 100,000 Poles—and a genocide, and which Ukraine, I should point out, recognizes. [2:01](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=121) She recognizes the massacre of 100,000 Poles, but rejects the term ethnic cleansing or genocide, preferring to speak of a tragic conflict in a context of war. [2:08](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=128) The misfortune, wait, the misfortune is that this is not the first time, which is why my concern is really there, because I think I've already told you here about the one who founded the UPA, [2:21](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=141) so the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which has a hero in Ukraine, that is Stepan Bandera, who was the leader of a fascist-leaning Ukrainian nationalist movement, violently anti-Soviet, but also anti-Semitic and xenophobic, it must be said, who collaborated with Nazi Germany in 1941 to wrest Ukraine's independence. [2:43](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=163) It is his movement and its arm, but therefore the famous UPA. who are therefore accused of the massacre of these Poles, but also of a serious, very active involvement, let's be frank, in the Holocaust by bullets, and therefore massacres, the first mass massacres of Jews. [3:03](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=183) His personal involvement, meaning whether Bandera was physically present at the time of the Holocaust by bullets, at the time of the massacres, I mean, his personal, physical involvement is still debated by historians. [3:14](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=194) On the other hand, there is no debate about Roman Shukhevich, who commanded Auxiliary Police 201 in the service of the Nazi SS apparatus, who was at the head of the bloody repression operations in Belarus, and who became the leader of the UPA, [3:31](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=211) and therefore he is the one who clearly bears the responsibility. [3:33](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=213) My misfortune is that these two guys, there are still street names dedicated to them, there are still statues. [3:40](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=220) And that's how it is in Ukraine. And it's those two figures, to be clear... [3:44](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=224) And really, we need nuance here. — But why does Zelensky promote them to the point of naming a unit after the UPA? [3:51](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=231) — Because they are two fundamental, historical figures of Ukrainian independence and the struggle for Ukrainian independence. [4:00](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=240) And that in the name of this sacrosanct struggle for Ukrainian independence, which I understand... the gray areas, and here I'm being very polite, nationalism is... here I'm talking about two people who praised ethnic nationalism, [4:15](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=255) who therefore agreed with the hierarchical organization of peoples based on ethnic origin, so exactly what the Nazis thought, who compromised themselves up to their elbows, not to say up to their scalps, with the Nazis. [4:31](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=271) And that's it, Ukrainian nationalism of course needs these figures, but the tragedy is that to resist this Russian aggression, it also reaches into the darkest areas of its history. But let's be clear, and this is what I think we must hold as indisputable, [4:47](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=287) nothing, and I mean nothing, justifies Putin's aggression against Ukraine and his attempted denazification. [4:55](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=295) Zelensky is not a Nazi worshipper, that's the expression used by Medvedev, the former president, who is the most venomous in his comments, but acknowledging that there is no denazification, that Putin's delusion is fake news, does not mean closing our eyes to a historical reality. [5:15](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=315) We can obviously extend a hand to Kyiv while asking them not to name their regiments after an army in the pay of the Nazis, and providing an argument. [5:27](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=327) That's why I'm talking about a blunder. Basically, that's why, you were absolutely right at the beginning, what is at stake is not a war of protocols, it's not a minor spat between diplomats. [5:39](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=339) No, it's really… [5:42](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=342) I kept thinking about Marc Bloch. Personally, I read the famous 'Strange Defeat' very, very last, which isn't even its title. [5:49](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=349) Personally, I studied history, and it's as a medievalist that I first knew him, and he is an immense medievalist. [5:53](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=353) Everything I've read about the Middle Ages, everything I know, is thanks to Marc Bloch. [5:56](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=356) I was thinking about these teasers of scars from the Second World War, and we must accept that the scars of the Second World War never close. [6:05](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=365) We will never manage to close them. It takes very little to reopen them, and that's normal. [6:10](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=370) Because there, in this case, there are 100,000 massacred Poles, there are hundreds of thousands of Jews looking at us through 80 years of history, and who demand their place in the Ukrainian historical narrative. [6:23](https://www.translate.mom/transcript/2dYoXD9XGm3l/en/zelensky-the-upa-and-the-ukraine-poland-historical-dispute?t=383) And I think it is no insult to the Ukrainians and the greatness of their fight for independence, against Russia, and their courage, to prove them right in all these misfortunes.