Transcript · English → Chinese
English → Chinese transcript
你对以色列政府持批评态度。
你相信以色列有存在的权利吗？
在那种狭义定义下，
你会认为自己是一个
犹太复国主义者吗？
那是什么意思，“存在的权利”？
指的是作为一个
政治国家的以色列，
在当今这种形式下的存在。
但它“有权利”——那是什么意思？
是不是说你不，
你认为它现在作为一个国家应当
继续存在。所以你是，比如说，
你不同意伊朗的看法。
好，那我反问一句，
既然是你先问我的问题，
那我也有权利让你先定义
这个术语，这样我才能回答。
你其实问了两个问题。
第一个是：你是否相信
以色列有存在的权利？
第二个问题是：你是否
认为以色列应该继续作为一个
民族国家存在？
这些是完全不同的问题。
所以我经常听到这样一句话……
既然它在1948年被创建为
一个政治实体，
那么那个国家是否…它有没有
存在的权利？你是在问这个
吗？我们——我不想
纠结在“权利”这个词上。
它应不应该，它应不应该…
不，不，是…不，不，不。
它应不应该继续存在？
这就是、这就是我对
犹太复国主义的狭义定义。
不，不，因为，因为你用的那个
说法当然是以色列政府想
出来的。它有没有存在的权利？
所以我想问你的问题是，
那是什么意思？
你为什么不回答我的问题？
这是个很简单的问题。
我不知道你的问题是什么。
你是在问，它有
没有存在的权利，还是在问我想
不想让它存在？
我是不是想把它毁掉？
好，那就那样回答吧。
当然，我当然不希望它被摧毁。
我已经说过了，
你也知道，因为我是对你说的，
我不希望以色列被毁灭，
或不得不动用核武器。所以我，
我们，我们已经确定，
从那个狭义上说，
你就是个犹太复国主义者。
我绝不是犹太复国主义者。
我根本不想任何国家被毁灭，
完全不想，
而且我不希望有人死去，
尤其是那些没有
犯过任何罪的人，因为我不相信
杀害无辜者，就这么简单。
这是西方文明的基础。
东方文明在这方面
有完全不同的看法，
他们相信集体惩罚，
我不相信。所以你绝不算是
犹太复国主义者。
我甚至都不知道那是什么意思。
你为什么不先问，
先给这个词下个定义，
然后我再告诉你我是不是。
我刚刚才给它下了定义。
我说过，在我狭义的用法
里，一个犹太复国主义者，
这个定义就是，
以色列这个国家，以色列这个
政治国家有继续存在的权利。
这个权利。这个权利从哪儿来
的？你什么意思？
这些就好像是，我可不是
在拿律师那一套说话，
我只是想知道你在问我什么。
你为什么不回答这个问题？
这很简单，也很公平…
因为我不知道你在问我什么。
我们来看第三个…
等等，不，不，我觉得很多…
是你不愿意给你的问题下定义。
而我不知道为什么。
我不知道你在问我什么。
我已经说过我不想
以色列被毁灭，
我不想任何人被杀。
而你问的是，以色列有没有生
存的权利？它有没有…
然后我，而我的问题是，
你说的是什么样的权利？
英国有生存权吗？
美利坚合众国有生存权吗？
二战结束后的1945
年后建立起了一种世界秩序
其含义是侵略行为不应被纵容
而且拥有边界的国家有权存在。
我完全同意这一点。好。
这也是为什么在这场据说关系到
以色列生存的战争刚开始两周内
以色列做的第一件事就是
占领他国的南黎巴嫩，
他们一再这么做。
而没有人提起这一点。
所以我想我会反对那种做法，
因为我认为黎巴嫩有生存权。
我原以为加沙也有生存权。
嗯，好，我懂，你说的，
我，我，我…但我注意到一旦
我们开始分配这些权利，
只有一个国家能得到它们。
不，我可没那么说。你在、
你分明就是在往我
嘴里塞话。所以，
因为我相信——既然你问了，
我就说我真正相信的。我相信有
普遍适用的标准。
如果它们不是普遍适用的，
那它们就不是标准，
而只是偏好。也正因为如此，
我相信人权，而不是族裔权。
我不认为犹太人比别人
拥有更多或更少的权利。
我不认为基督徒有更多或
更少的权利，黑人、菲律宾
人也是一样。我相信人权是来
源于上帝创造人这
一事实。
End of transcript · 808 words · machine translated
Original transcript (English)
You are critical of the government of Israel. Do you believe in Israel's right to exist? Would you consider yourself a Zionist in that narrow definition? Would you consider yourself a Zionist in that narrow definition? What does that mean, a right to exist?
What does that mean, a right to exist? The existence of the political state of Israel as it exists today. The existence of the political state of Israel as it exists today. But it has a right, what does that mean? That you don't, But it has a right, what does that mean? That you don't,
you think it should continue in its existence as a state right now. So you are the, you think it should continue in its existence as a state right now. So you are the, you do not agree with Iran, for example. you do not agree with Iran, for example. Well, let me just ask, since you asked me the question, it's fair for me to
Well, let me just ask, since you asked me the question, it's fair for me to get you to define the term so I can answer it. You've asked two questions. get you to define the term so I can answer it. You've asked two questions. The first was, do you believe Israel has a right to exist? The first was, do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
And the second question was, do you believe Israel should continue to go on as a nation state? And those are very different questions. So I often hear the phrase... And those are very different questions. So I often hear the phrase... Having been created as a political entity in 1948, does that state...
Does it have a right to exist? Is that what you're asking? Does it have a right to exist? Is that what you're asking? We, I don't want to get hung up on the right. Should it, should it... We, I don't want to get hung up on the right. Should it, should it... No, no, it's... No, no, no. Should it continue to exist?
No, no, it's... No, no, no. Should it continue to exist? No, no, it's... No, no, no. Should it continue to exist? That's what, that's how I define narrowly Zionist. No, no, because, That's what, that's how I define narrowly Zionist. No, no, because, because the phrase you used was devised by the Israeli government, of course.
Does it have a right to exist? And so my question to you would be, what does that mean? Why don't you answer my question? It's a very simple question. Why don't you answer my question? It's a very simple question. I don't know what your question is. Are you asking, does it have a right to exist,
I don't know what your question is. Are you asking, does it have a right to exist, I don't know what your question is. Are you asking, does it have a right to exist, or do I want it to exist? Do I seek its destruction? Fine, answer it that way. or do I want it to exist? Do I seek its destruction? Fine, answer it that way. Well, of course I don't seek its destruction. I've already said, as you know,
Well, of course I don't seek its destruction. I've already said, as you know, because I said it to you, because I said it to you, I don't want Israel to be destroyed or have to use nuclear weapons. So we, we've, we've established that you are in that narrow terms a Zionist.
we've established that you are in that narrow terms a Zionist. we've established that you are in that narrow terms a Zionist. I'm in no sense a Zionist. I don't want any country to be destroyed, at all, and I don't want people to die, particularly ones who've committed no crime, and I don't want people to die, particularly ones who've committed no crime,
and I don't want people to die, particularly ones who've committed no crime, because I don't believe in killing innocents, period. because I don't believe in killing innocents, period. That's the basis of Western civilization. Eastern civilizations have a whole different view,
Eastern civilizations have a whole different view, they believe in collective punishment. I don't. So you're in no sense a Zionist. they believe in collective punishment. I don't. So you're in no sense a Zionist. I don't even know what that means. Why don't you ask, I don't even know what that means. Why don't you ask,
define the term and then I'll tell you whether I am. I just, I just defined it. define the term and then I'll tell you whether I am. I just, I just defined it. define the term and then I'll tell you whether I am. I just, I just defined it. I said that, that a Zionist in my narrow term, I said that, that a Zionist in my narrow term,
I said that, that a Zionist in my narrow term, this definition is that the state of Israel, this definition is that the state of Israel, the political state of Israel has the right to continue existing. The right. Where does that right come from?
Where does that right come from? What do you mean? These are like, I'm not being a lawyer about it, I just want to know what you're asking me. Why don't you answer the question? I just want to know what you're asking me. Why don't you answer the question? It's a simple, it's a fair...
It's a simple, it's a fair... Because I don't know what you're asking me. Let's go to the third... Wait, no, no, I think a lot of... You don't want to define your question. Wait, no, no, I think a lot of... You don't want to define your question. Wait, no, no, I think a lot of... You don't want to define your question.
And I don't know why. I don't know what you're asking me. I've already said I don't want Israel to be destroyed, I don't want anyone to be killed. And you've said, does Israel have a I don't want anyone to be killed. And you've said, does Israel have a
right to exist? Does it have a... And I, my question is, what right are you talking about? my question is, what right are you talking about? Does Britain have a right to exist? Does the United States have a right to exist?
There was a world order built up after 1945 There was a world order built up after 1945 which suggested that aggression should not be condoned and that countries with borders have the right to exist. I totally agree with that. Okay.
Which is why the first thing that Israel did within two weeks of this war starting, which is supposedly existential for them, was take southern Lebanon. Take someone else's country, as they have done repeatedly. And no one even mentions that. And so I guess I would be opposed to that because I guess I think Lebanon has
I thought Gaza had a right to exist. Yeah, no, I hear that. I, I, I... But I notice that as soon as we start apportioning rights, But I notice that as soon as we start apportioning rights, only one country gets them. No, I did not say that.
You're, you're absolutely putting words into my mouth. You're, you're absolutely putting words into my mouth. So because I believe, here's what I do believe, since you asked. So because I believe, here's what I do believe, since you asked. I believe in universally applicable standards.
I believe in universally applicable standards. And if they're not universally applicable, they're not standards, they're preferences. That's why I believe in human rights, not ethnic rights. they're preferences. That's why I believe in human rights, not ethnic rights. I don't think Jews have more rights or less rights than anyone else.
I don't think Jews have more rights or less rights than anyone else. I don't think Christians have more rights or less rights, blacks, Filipinos. I believe in human rights that derive from the creation of people by God.
