English transcript

So you've had, you've had complaints from one

programmer who said you guys are basically stealing

people's stuff and not paying them, and then

he wound up murdered. What was that?

Also a great tragedy. Uh, he committed suicide.

Do you think he committed suicide?

I really do. Have you... Look, this was like

a friend of mine. This is like a guy that...

not a close friend, but this is someone that

worked at OpenAI for a very long time. I spent...

I mean, I was really shaken by this tragedy.

I spent a lot of time trying to... ...you know,

read everything I could, as I'm sure you and

others did too, about what happened. Um... it

looks like a suicide to me. Why does it look

like a suicide?

It was a gun he had purchased. It was the...

this is like gruesome to talk about, but I read

the whole like medical record. That's right.

That's right. Does it not look like one to you?

No, he was definitely murdered, I think. Um,

there were signs of a struggle. Of course, the

surveillance camera, the wires had been cut.

He had just ordered takeout food, come back

from a vacation with his friends on Catalina

Island, no indication at all that he was suicidal,

no note, and no behavior. He had just spoken

to a family member on the phone, and then he's

found dead with blood in multiple rooms. So,

that's impossible. Seems really obvious he was

murdered. Have you talked to the authorities

about it?

I have not talked to the authorities about it.

Um, and his mother claims he was murdered on

your orders. Do you believe that?

I... I'm... well, I'm... I'm asking. I mean,

as you... you just said it, so do you... do

you believe that?

I think that it is, um, worth looking into.

And I don't... I mean, if a guy comes out and

accuses your company of committing crimes...

...I have no idea if that's true or not, of

course. Um, and then is found killed... ...and

there are signs of a struggle, I... I don't

think it's worth dismissing it. I don't think

we should say, "Well, he killed himself," when

there's no evidence that the guy was depressed

at all. Um, I think... and if he was your friend,

I would think you would want to speak to his

mom or... I did offer. She didn't want to. So,

do you feel that... ...you know, when people

look at that and they're like, you know, it's

possible that happened... ...do you feel that

that reflects the worries they have about what's

happening here?

Like, people are afraid that this is like...

I've done too many interviews where I've been

accused of like... Well, I'm not accusing you

at all. I'm just saying his... his mother says

that. I don't think a fair read of the evidence

suggests suicide at all. I mean, I just don't

see that at all. And I also don't understand

why the authorities, when there are signs of

a struggle and blood in two rooms... ...on a

suicide, like, how does that actually happen?

I don't understand how the authorities could

just kind of dismiss that as a suicide. I think

it's weird. You understand how this sounds like

an accusation. O-Of course. And I... I mean,

I certainly... let me just be clear once again,

not accusing you of any wrongdoing... ...but

I... I think it's worth finding out what happened.

And I don't understand why the city of San Francisco

has refused to investigate it beyond just calling

it a suicide. I mean, I think they looked into

it a couple of times. More than once, as I understand

it. I saw the... and I will totally say, when

I first heard about this, it sounded very suspicious

to me. Yes. Um, and I know you have been involved

in... His mother reached out. ...the fact of

the case. And I, you know, I don't know anything

about it, it's not my world. She just reached

out cold?

She reached out cold. Wow. And, uh, and I spoke

to her at great length, and it... and it scared

the crap out of me. The kid was clearly killed

by somebody. That was my conclusion, objectively,

with no skin in the game. And you, after reading

the latest report... Yes. And I immediately

called a member of Congress from California,

Ro Khanna, and said, "This is crazy, you gotta

look into this." And nothing ever happened.

And I'm like, what is that?

Again, I think this is... I... I feel... ...strange

and sad debating this and having to defend myself

against seeming totally crazy. And you are a

little bit accusing me, but, um, the... Oh,

I'm not accusing you. I'm just debating the

facts. ...this was like a wonderful person and

a family that is clearly struggling. Yes. And

I think you can totally take the point that

you're just trying to get to the truth of what

happened, and I respect that. Um, but I think

his memory and his family deserve to be treated

with... ...a level of respect and grief that

I don't quite feel here. I'm asking at the behest

of his family. So I'm definitely showing them

respect. Um, and I'm not accusing you of any

involvement in this at all. What I am saying

is that the evidence does not suggest suicide.

And for the authorities in your city to elide

past that and ignore the evidence... ...that

any reasonable person would say adds up to a

murder, I think is very weird. And it shakes

the faith that one has in our system's ability

to respond to the facts. So what I was gonna

say is, after the first set of information that

came out, I was really like, "Man, this doesn't

look like a suicide. I'm confused." Okay. Okay.

So I'm not reaching... I'm not being crazy here.

Well, but then after the second thing came out

and the more detail, I was like, "Oh, okay."

What changed your mind?

Um, the second report on the way the bullet

entered him and the sort of person who had like

followed the... ...this sort of likely path

of things through the room. I assume you looked

at this too. Yes, I did. And what about that

didn't change your mind?

It just didn't make any sense to me. Why would

the security camera wires be cut?

And how did he wind up bleeding in two rooms

after shooting himself?

And why was there a wig in the room that wasn't

his?

And has there ever been a suicide where there

was no indication at all that the person was

suicidal, who just ordered takeout food?

I mean, who... who orders DoorDash and then

shoots himself?

I mean, maybe. I've covered a lot of crimes

as a police reporter. I've never heard of anything

like that. So no, it... I was even more confused.

I... this is where it gets into, I think, a

little bit painful, just not the level of respect

I'd hope to show to someone with this kind of

mental illness. I get it. I totally get it.

If this is a dude whose family asked me... People

do commit suicide without notes, a lot. Like,

that happens. For sure. People definitely order

food they like before they commit suicide. Like,

this is... this is an incredible tragedy and...

and I... That's his family's view, and they

think it was a murder, and that's why I'm asking

the question. If I were his family, I am sure

I would want answers, and I am sure I would

not be satisfied with really any... I mean,

there's nothing that would comfort me in that,

you know. Right. Like... so I get it. I also

care a lot about respect to him. Right.