Biblical Perspectives on Homosexuality

Where in the Bible does it condemn homosexual marriage or homosexual acts?

Homosexuality, we could look at both the Old

and the New Testament, but I prefer

to look at Romans 1 because it doesn't just say the word homosexuality.

We can contend over when that was added to the Bible,

I know that's a claim that

people make. But it actually describes the behavior of

homosexuality and

says that God gave them over to the impurity of their hearts, gave them

over to their lust, and said that women exchanged natural relations

with

men for unnatural relations with women.

Men exchanged natural relations with women for unnatural

relations with men. And this is condemned in scripture, not only there,

but also in

1 Corinthians 6. And so yeah, we see it condemned multiple

places throughout scripture.

Okay. Yeah, let's talk about Romans 1 real quick.

Let's get that-

Sure

... out of the way. Do you understand that Romans 1 is speaking about how the

Gentiles have do, do all this as a rhetorical trap in

Romans 2, to go ahead and say to the Jews, "You're all actually guilty as well, and

you all need Christ."

Hmm, where are you getting that idea?

Have you read Romans 1?

Yes, of course I've read Romans 1.

So-

I have it in front of me. I can read it-

Yeah

... for you if you'd like.

Right before, right before 26, right before 25, uh, right before

27, all about idolatry.

Yeah.

So why is it, why is it that this is not about idolatry all of a sudden?

Yes, actually 1 Corinthians 6 says the same

thing, to flee from idolatry,

flee from all forms of sexual immorality, and then it lists

specifically men who practice homosexuality as one of the practices

that's

condemned. And so idolatry and sexual immorality, all

forms of it, we do see are hand-in-hand throughout scripture,

including in Romans 1. So I'm not seeing your point that this

is some sort of

rhetorical trap, uh, trap or that he's not speaking literally here.

So this is the only reference of lesbianism in the New Testament,

you would say

that, right?

That I can think of, sure.

Except St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Gregory,

all of them said it wasn't. Because what's actually happening here in

Greco-Roman

times is that women are having anal intercourse as part of

ritual taboos.

That's why it's idolatry. Do you wanna go back to the Old Testament?

You wanna go reference 18:22?

Uh, 'cause we can go there, too.

Um, I'm not sure that I know what you are referring to when you say

18:22, but I also don't see any evidence for-

Sorry, Leviticus

... y- yeah.

Leviticus, yeah.

Oh, you're talking about... Oh-

Leviticus 18:22

... I thought you meant the year. Leviticus 18:22, yes.

But again, it's Old Testament, it's New Testament, and not only

is it condemned

in multiple places, but again, we certainly can't say,

and I don't think that you

would be able to say, that homosexual relations

are ever talked about in

any sort of positive or holy sense throughout scripture.

So as a Christian, when I'm reading scripture,

I'm not saying, "Okay, what can I

get away with?" I wanna know, how can I glorify God most,

and I wanna look at,

what does he talk about positively?

What word is used in the Old Testament to talk about male on male relationships?

Hmm, I'm not, I don't remember the Hebrew term.

Qadeshim, which is actually male prostitutes.

Th-

And you're talking about, do you believe that it

was just pederasty or it was

pedophilia that they were condemning-

Well, it was

... at the time?

Qadeshim literally means male prostitutes.

But in the New Testament, the Greek words used

are just male lies with male.

There is no denotion whatsoever that this was not consensual or

that this was a man and a child. There's a different word for that.

Arsenokoitai?

Arsenokoitai is one of the words that's used for that.

There's also another word that's used in Romans 1 to condemn

homosexuality.

Malakoi.

But we don't actually see that this denotes any sort of

pederasty or pedophilia. It's very clear that we're talking about

two adults.

Yeah. I'm not talking about pedophilia here,

I'm talking about pederasty.

Uh, arsenokoitai, the, do you know the earliest usage of it?

I don't.

It was actually used as economic exploitation of men.

Because back then the only homosexual relationships you had, keep in mind,

the word

homosexual came in the 1860s.

Yes.

The earliest you have-

Which is exactly why it wasn't add to, uh-

Uh-huh

... added to scripture till 1946.

Yeah, exactly.

Not because the act was not, uh, described in scripture.

Yeah. So arsenokoitai has been used for economic

exploitation in its earliest

usage, and above that, malakoi was used for effeminate men that

were castrating

themselves for the goddess Athena.

When Christianity first came around, there was a huge pantheon of Roman gods,

and

people in Ephesus were worshiping them as well,

and they were saying, "Oh, there's

actually multiple gods." And all around scripture, that's ex-

that's exactly the

case that's happening. There's actually no usage at all.

P- we actually have Greek words that Paul likely knew about that w- uh,

reference homosexuality. Why didn't he use them?

Why did he only use two words that mean effeminate men, which,

where he was

describing for men that castrate themself for Athena,

and arsenokoitai, which

refers to men that take advantage of smaller men, like sex slave trades.

So your, is your argument that the Bible never condemns

homosexuality anywhere,

and that homosexual relations, as long as they were consensual

and between two

adults, is actually elevated to a place of

morality in the same place that a

man between, a marriage between a man and a woman is?

Th-

Is that your argument?

I'm saying the Bible has no condemnation of it.

No condemnation. But when we look at scripture, what

is the one kind of

relationship that we see described as holy, as representative of

Christ in the church, as having the ability to go forth

and be fruitful and

multiply? All of us are born with our full digestive systems,

our full circulatory systems, but all of us are only born with half a

reproductive

system. Don't you think that science tells us a little bit of

something about

how human beings are supposed to join together?

No, because not all human beings join

together. Uh, many don't.

Many people don't even have-

In princ-

... sexual organs

... in principle.

Well, no, no, I-

By nature

... In principle, sure, that, that's to multiply, you know,

if that's your natural

law interpretation. However, Jesus teaches us

that we're not our body parts.

We're a lot more than them.

Jesus also teaches that in the beginning he made them male

and female, and the two

shall be- come together and become one flesh.

What is that about?

M- Matthew 19:4-5. That's-

No, what is it about?

He is answering a question about divorce, and instead of just saying God hates

divorce, he goes all the way back to the creation

ordinance and the definition of

male and female, and marriage is between one man and one woman.

He does not do that. He-

He does

... he, he doesn't explicitly-

Matthew 19:4-5, he does. He goes all the way back-

No

... explicitly.

I know he does that. I know he talks about creation order.

Creation order is not condemnation of homosexuality.

You keep talking about and keep postulating

that just because of these

descriptive parts of the Bible, as you used in your last argument,

all of a sudden

that's prescriptive that homosexuality is outlawed.

No, but it is prescriptive because it says

that these people will not inherit the

Kingdom of God in 1 Corinthians 6, and that includes men who practice

homosexuality. Romans 1, it's also condemned and described,

that he's

giving them over to a depraved mind to do what ought not to be done.

That is a prescription to not do something.

Except it-

Thank you very, very much