Discussion on Israel and Gaza Conflict

Joining us now to talk about Obama's approach and the world's harsh criticism

of

Israel, Clifford May, president of the Foundation for the

Defense of Democracies,

and Pat Buchanan, an MSNBC political analyst.

Pat, we knocked this around the other night-

Sure

... Obama's silence. I wanna start at a different point.

A lot of people have criticized Israel for sort of its disproportionate response,

and yet after 9/11, the United States went into Afghanistan

and killed a lot of people, some would argue a lot more than-

Right

... were killed with 9/11. What's the difference?

Well, the difference is, in my judgment, Afghanistan, that was respons- the,

al-Qaeda was responsible for bringing down those towers.

If the Afghans had dealt with them, given us Osama bin Laden,

we would not have

gone in. We had a justification that was an act of war.

The Israelis had been hit with, for six months with these little rockets,

which

didn't kill anybody. It was outrageous, cruel, and stupid, and they

triggered a blitzkrieg against the Palestinians in Gaza, which in

my judgment is an Israeli concentration camp, where a million and a

half people are locked up, cannot come out or go in.

They've been controlling food, electricity, fuel.

And the innocent people in Gaza are the ones suffering.

Uh, hold on here. Concentration camp, Pat, doesn't that diminish the significance

of the real concentration camps which we've heard about?

No, I'm not talking about a death camp.

I'm talking about what the British had in concentration camps in,

in South Africa and what the Spanish had in Cuba and what

others have had, where they bring all these people,

lock them in there, and treat

them with great cruelty, and a din- and a humanitarian disaster, despite

what Tzipi Livni says.

Cliff?

Look, the people of Gaza could have peace

tomorrow, and they could have an

independent state the day after. All it would take is for Hamas to

do two things. One, stop the missiles.

You cannot have any country, even a country like Israel,

simply accept that,

okay, for the rest of our lives, and this has been going on for years now,

we

accept that they're going to be firing missiles at us. Some of them are small.

Some of them, they're bigger. They'll get bigger.

But we accept this as a fact of life. We deserve to be hit with missiles.

All Hamas would have to do is say, "No more missiles starting tomorrow.

We understand. And by the way, we accept Israel as a state,

as a neighbor.

We just wanna negotiate the borders."

Let me tell you-

Now, Hamas cannot do that-

Uh-

... because of its religious conviction

that infidels may not,

anywhere in the Middle East, be in power, cannot do it.

The best th- all right, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go, go too long.

That, that makes-

But what I'm saying is, it's not a concentration camp.

They could walk out of it tomorrow. They could walk to Egypt, by the way.

Look at these people.

Anybody they want to.

All right.

And they could have peace if they'd just stop the missile attacks.

They haven't yet.

You know-

And they won-

... that makes you wonder, that makes you wonder why the Israelis had

a hand in

creating Hamas to split Fatah. Now-

We had a hand in creating what happened in Afghanistan, so I-

... we're not gonna get into, exactly.

Let's go, all right, he says, "Stop the missile firing and, and,

and, and, and work for peace with Israel, and you get your own state." Why don't

they have a state on the West Bank then?

They have done that, and the Israelis continue to steal their

land.

They build outposts and settlements-

If they want all of Jerusalem, that's why.

Well, listen-

There's some issues that are unresolved.

And let me, let me mention-

Is this one of them?

Hold it, hold it. Let me talk here a second.

And they have, and of course, they have not agreed to have the Is-

Palestinians

have their own capital in Jerusalem.

The point is, why haven't they given back the Golan

Heights?

Let's-

It's been peace on the Golan Heights-

I know. Let, let me ask-

... since 1973

... look, let me ask you, as you, as, as you know, in 2005-

Sure

... Israel decided to leave Gaza, end the occupation of Gaza.

Every soldier, every settler came out.

And the rationale was, look, if it's our occupation that's causing the

violence,

let's see what happens from our absence.

They left, and there was a chance then that Hamas

or the Palestinians then

could have put hotels on the beaches. They could have had factories and schools.

They could have taken over the greenhouses.

Right.

And instead, they made it into a terrorist enclave.

To play devil's-

Had, had they done the other thing-

You may, you may play devil's advocate

... had they made, let me, let me say this. Had, had Ga- ...

had Gaza become a functioning and free state-

All right

... then the pressure inside Israel to give up

everything or 99.7% of what's in the

West Bank would have been enormous.

There was no such pressure-

Cliff, let me, I know-

... because Gaza became Hamasstan

... Cliff, this is the Israeli Defense Ministry.

Excuse me, but when the s- 8,000 left Gaza, where did they

go? They put, took them and put them on the West Bank with

American tax

dollars, took Palestinian land, built new settlements, despite the fact

that about 10 American presidents have said, "Please stop building

settlements."

You're, you're telling me that Hamas, Hamas can't build schools.

They have to do, have to throw missiles at Israel because

Israel's not on the West

Bank? Do you think for a minute-

Here's my issue, Cliff

... that if Israel got off the West Bank, the missiles would stop?

Here's my issue-

Because we know from Gaza it wouldn't

... and I agree with you on this, but on the point of Obama-

Yeah

... why can't Obama or somebody representing him-

Gotcha

... articulate that very simple point?

Well, I, look, I think Obama is probably being smart to not say much

right

now, and the best present O- that Obama could have in the new

administration

is for Israel to defeat or at least cripple Hamas.

Fatah would come back into Gaza, and you'd have a new round,

a new peace process-

Uh-

... but a peace process that has a chance, 'cause there's no peace process you can

have with Hamas if you understand Hamas.

No.

And I can't believe you don't understand Hamas' ideology.

I understand Hamas. But what do you, let me tell you.

I tell you how you create people for Hamas.

You kill 675 people. You wound and injure 3,000.

What do you think the brothers and sisters-

And-

... those five little girls that died, what are they gonna be when they grow up?

What are these people-

Hopefully-

... under this, treated like this?

You know-

This, look, why do you think-

You know-

... the Palestinians-

You know and I know that H- Hamas' doctrine,

and we can talk about it right here-

I know their doctrine

... is to hide in schools, in mosques, to hide among the civilians and use

civilians for shields. And you know it is a war crime to use civilians for

shields.

Uh-huh. Let me tell you-

You should be criticizing those war crimes on the part of Hamas.

Look, I, I, I sure, look, Hamas, any war crimes,

I criticize their attacks with

those rockets, stupid and cruel. But you sit here and tell

me that the Israeli people or the Israeli nation

have, have treated the Palestinian people with

any kind of justice.

Those towns hit by the rockets are former Palestinian towns.

Well, here, the is-

Ashkelon, Ashdod-

The issue we, well, speaking of justice-

... Sderot

... the issue we're getting into tomorrow-

Too often

... is sort of the justice of the criticism of

Israel, which to me seems like a

complete double standard with the way we treat a lot of countries around the world,

and that's a separate issue, and we'll get into that tomorrow.

But Clifford May, Pat Buchanan-

Okay

... thank you both. We appreciate it.