Douglas Murray and Fatima Debate a Niqab Ban in Britain

Do you understand that many people feel this is divisive?

It is a curtain between you and the rest of society. Well, to be quite frank, I think people are free to feel how they want.

It does, I don't care how you feel. But, but what I say tonight, what Yasmin says, and other people say tonight, people see our faces. They know who said it.

I'm sorry to say this, but nobody knows who you are.

They can hear your name. They can't see you.

Fatima- If I say something stupid on television tonight, people know it's me saying it.

If you do, with all due respect, you can disappear and no one knows.

She's a new name. We're not disappearing.

That was Douglas Murray, the only man on the panel, in a hall in East London packed with women in face veils.

Channel 4 put one question to them live on air: should the niqab be banned in Britain?

Against him sit three women who wear it, including a community activist.

Over the next 20 minutes, he'll be told it's just a piece of cloth, that most communication doesn't need a face, and that how the country feels doesn't matter.

Then he asks one question about an airport, and the whole case starts to fall apart.

It starts with a poll. Can I just begin with you, Fatima? Yes.

56% of British people don't really support the wearing of the full face veil in public. They don't want it.

Uh, well, I think it depends on where you, where you take the poll, really.

Because, um, well, uh, something that I've recently launched is a project called Secrets of a Muslim Woman, and it's all about letting people know, uh, why we do what we do.

Because I think a lot of it is to do with not really being familiar with it.

You know, I mean, uh, I mean, my message to the British public is that you've got nothing to fear.

You know, it's a piece of cloth. But they don't feel that though, do they?

Because elsewhere in this po- poll, a majority said they don't know how to relate- You know what?

... to a woman wearing a full face veil. I think, you know, the people who have actually interacted with women who wear the face veil, people who work with them, I mean, we're in East London today.

In East London, the veil is practically, you know, normal on the streets of, of East London.

Uh, people who've actually interacted and worked with w- women who wear the veil have absolutely no problem with it.

Douglas Murray- I think it's the fear of the unknown ...

Douglas Murray, would you like to see the ve- the veil banned here?

Well, I think like a, a majority of British people, I think that it should be banned in public places, particularly places like courtrooms, where it's absolutely imperative- But what about an overall ban? ... that a jury are able to see the faces of, uh, people who are accused. As for an overall ban, I think, look,

uh, my own opinion is the niqab is highly undesirable.

I think that we live in a society where people do show their faces, where huge amounts of our social interaction depend on people showing their faces.

I think that it's very difficult to enforce a ban in public places like streets, but it should be a certainly a desirable thing to discourage its wearing.

So difficult to impose a ban, but in principle, you'd like to see one because you think in Britain it's unacceptable.

In, in public buildings, in courts, in schools, in places like this, absolutely, I think a ban would be, uh, very sensible.

In streets and so on, I think it's difficult, but it should be societally discouraged.

56% of the country doesn't want the full face veil in public, and the first answer is, "It depends where you take the poll."

Then, "You've got nothing to fear." So an objection becomes a fear, and the fear is the public's problem.

Murray's answer is calmer than his reputation.

Courtrooms, because a jury has to see the accused.

Schools, public buildings. On the street, discourage it.

Don't ban it. Most of Britain already agrees with that.

Now listen to the reply and one sentence in it that's going to matter later.

Fatima? No, a ban, I mean, I think it's a complete overreaction.

Look, the niqab has been part of the British landscape for the last 20-odd years, okay?

Muslim women have been going about their business.

We've got a radio presenter here. We've got a scientist.

We've got talented Muslim women who've got a lot to give to this society, who've been doing so and been very sensible about it.

But it's- When we need to remove our face veils, we do it.

But- How do you think we get through airport security?

But, Sahra, I mean, what, what about the fact that 56% of people are saying they don't want it here? You know what?

I'm not surprised at all because when you know that high-profile politicians making such, uh, uh, uh- Fuss ... offensive comment, comments and big fuss about it, I am not surprised- But Douglas Murray is right ... the public say they are against it ... in British society. "When we need to remove our face veils, we do it.

But Douglas Murray is right ... the public say they are against it ... in British society. "When we need to remove our face veils, we do it.

How do you think we get through airport security?"

Hold on to that because Murray will. And the 56%?

Blame the politicians, apparently. The public didn't make up its own mind.

Then the community activist, Sahra El Faifi, takes over, and the argument gets stranger