NATO Expansion and Russian Military Tensions

to look at this and say the reason that the Russian army is on NATO, uh, the,

the

Russian army is at NATO's doorstep is because NATO has expanded

rather than the, the Russians expanding?

That, in other words,

NATO has moved closer to Russia rather than Russia moving closer to

NATO. Is that not an accurate w- way to look at this?

I think that's the way p- President Putin probably looks at it.

But-

It's certainly not the way that we look at it.

You don't, you don't think that NATO has expanded eastward toward

Russia?

NATO has expanded.

Okay.

And, and the expansion has been a good thing

for-

So the reason, so the reason that the Russian army

is at NATO's doorstep is not the

fault of the Russian ar- not the, it's not the Russian army that's done it,

it's NATO has moved closer to, mo- moved east.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't NATO who was ordering, you know, upwards of 15

battalion tactical groups to within 10 kilometers of the border with Ukraine, and

I'm pretty sure it wasn't NATO who put little green men inside Ukraine to

destabilize-

Okay

... eastern cities.

Well, I'm pretty sure that Ukraine is not a member of NATO, so unless that's

changed.

It's not, it's not changed.

Okay. So-

But I'm pretty sure the movement by Russia is Russia's decision

... has NATO, has, if NATO has moved east, the reason that the Russian army is

closer or on NATO's doorstep is because NATO moved, not because the-

NATO is not an, an anti-Russia alliance.

NATO is a security alliance.

Unfor- for 50 years, it was an anti-Ru- Soviet

alliance. So do you not understand it-

What does Soviet mean now?

Tell me, do you not understand how, or can you not even see how the Russians

would

perceive it as a, as a threat? And the fact that it keeps getting closer

to their

border while their troops, I mean, the, the places where their troops

are, you say their troops are, and may, may have been in Ukraine and Georgia, are

not NATO members.

I don't have, I'm not gonna pretend to know what goes in

President Putin's mind or

Russian military commanders. I mean-

Well, the-

... I barely got a history degree at the

University of South Florida.

All right.

What I can tell you, what I can tell you is that, is that, uh,

NATO is a

defensive alliance. It remains a defensive alliance.

Fair enough, but it has moved east, correct? I mean, that's just a fact.

It has expanded.

Absolutely.

Right. Exactly. And so the reason-

But there's no reason for anybody to think the expansion is a hostile or

threatening move.

Well, no.

And we've been saying that throughout the last 15 years, Matt.

Well, no, but it's like getting, you're mo- you're moving closer to Russia,

yet

you're blaming the Russians for being close to NATO.

No, no, no, no.

That's exactly what Hagel said.

What we're blaming the Russians for are violating the territorial integrity of

Ukraine-

Okay, great

... and destabilizing the security situation

in that area.

Okay, which is not a NATO member. Which is not a NATO member.

I, I, I cede to you on that point.

Other countries feel threatened.