Discussion on Ukraine-Russia Conflict

Russia invaded Ukraine

Right, but this is not Ukraine, this is the UK.

No, that's right, and, um, what the UK is doing is supporting Ukraine and

defending its territorial integrity.

Fighting a war against Russia, so you are participating in a war.

But this is exactly, this is exactly the same as America helping

Kuwait rescue

itself from Iraq.

Right, except-

Do, do you-

... Iraq isn't, didn't have nuclear weapons.

But do you believe in territorial integrity of nation states?

Uh, in my own for sure. I'm not sure the territorial integrity of

someone

else's state is worth risking-

Even when America has guaranteed it

... my life for. The question is should, first of all, can you

guarantee it?

America did.

So do you think that was wrong?

Because-

Probably

... because the quid pro quo was that Ukraine would have kept its nuclear

weapons.

So you're saying Ukraine should have kept its nuclear weapons.

Well, there were many subsequent subsequent-

No, no

... arrangements that were violated on all sides.

But-

No. No, this is the fundamental point

which we're trying to get away from.

Okay.

So let me put this back to you.

Please do.

The United States made an agreement with Ukraine, Russia, and the United Kingdom

that the territorial integrity of Ukraine would be inviolable

on condition that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.

Oh, no, you are-

If you think-

You are mistaken

... if you think-

The United States has never pledged to go to war with Russia.

It didn't, I didn't say it did.

Okay. Then it's-

I said-

... what you're saying is immaterial actually.

I said it... No, I'm saying it made this agreement with the

other parties.

So there's a treaty that obligates the United States to fight

a war against Russia.

No, it doesn't obligate it to fight a war.

Okay, then it's irrelevant what you're saying.

It ob- I'm saying that if you don't think America has an interest

in this, it

shouldn't have signed the treaty, and then Ukraine should have kept its

nuclear

weapons.

There is no treaty that obligates the United States-

It, it's-

I'm speaking with authority on this-

Yes, I'm aware of that

... to fight Russia-

I'm aware-

... on the basis of what Russia did in

February of 2022.

I'm well aware of that.

All right.

I'm well aware of what was said in relation to the nuclear

weapons.

It is not an agreement to go to war, nor strictly speaking is

Article 5 of NATO. It's not a requirement to go to war.

Aware.

It is a request that can be ignored.

Um, it's not an automatic act of war that the

member state affected can call upon Article 5.

I'm aware of that.

But it doesn't require an automatic response.

But what you're saying is that this treaty that

was signed where Ukraine gave up

its nuclear weapons was entirely pointless.

Well, of course I'm not saying that at all.

So what-

What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is-

So what was it then?

... that there have been many subsequent

agreements since, including a verbal

agreement which has been testified to by people who were present, that the United

States would not expand

NATO to Russia's borders, which is an understandable concern of Russia.