Debate on Islamic Monotheism and Logic

Okay, so, so, so-

How do you think God is one without the help of the Quran?

Okay, good. So you don't think that we can know

that one God exists apart from

revelation? We would be confused whether

or not there's one or more than one god?

Yeah, of course.

Okay.

How could you possibly know that there is a- Like, like, to me, that seems so

unbelievably obvious that I assumed you

were getting this from the Quran, but

you're right, that was an assumption I made.

And so now explain-

Yeah, it was a very silly assumption

... no, no. Okay, so explain to me-

Yeah

... how you can possibly know without, without revelation, just purely by logic-

Yeah

... the attributes of God, that there are exactly one, and that there isn't a

trinity, that there isn't other persons, that you could know-

Oh, now we're going-

... purely by itself

... well, we're now going, if you wanna go back into the Trinity,

the reason we

know that the Trinity is false is because it claims to be one God,

but it very

clearly is three gods.

If you-

If you wanna go, if you, if you want me to go down knocking it down

every other

religious claim, whether it be Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever else-

No, no

... I can do that. That's not the point.

Purely by logic-

The point-

... don't go after Hinduism.

Exactly

... explain to me how you know there's one God

who's exactly the God-

I will, I will, if you'd be quiet and let me actually talk

and explain this to you,

because it's surprising to me that you as a Christian don't know how

there's one

God. So here's an argument as to how we know

that there's one God.

If there were multiple gods, as we see in certain polytheistic

traditions, like

the ancient Greeks, Romans, et cetera, then we would not see uniformity

in nature, which we experience. We experience a genuine design

and uniformity in

nature, which points back to the fact that there's one creator and

that there's one

God. If there were multiple gods and multiple creators,

then there wouldn't be what

we call necessary agreement. For example, if you had the scenario that there were

two gods, how could two gods be b- in order to be God, would you agree

that God has

to be all-powerful?

I think that.

It is-

I don't know how you would know that purely logically.

Does... So you don't know that God is all-powerful?

I do know that, but I-

But you don't know that, you don't know that-

... can't deduce that purely from logic

... you don't know that independent of revelation.

No, of course not. You don't even know causation independent

of revelation.

What?

Like, like, no, no, this is-

You don't know that cause and effect exist apart from revelation?

Absolutely, you do not. This is actually one of the big problems with

secular

philosophy. I mean, have you read Hume? Have you read any basic philosophy?

Yes.

Like, one of the problems is that we-

I actually have two degrees in it. Do you?

Ex- I, no, I don't.

Okay.

Yeah, I've read before-

So I've read a lot more than you have.

Excellent. I'm glad you've read a lot.

Yeah.

So d- e- explain to me why Hume's critiques of

cause and effect-

So, so now we're going into, now we're going into,

in order to try to prove that

Islamic monotheism is false-

Yeah

... or not true, we have to doubt whether

or not we even exist, we have to doubt

whether or not cause and effect really exists.

No, you have to explain to me how it makes-

We have to doubt, we have to, we have to-

... without revelation

... we have to, we have to doubt whether or not,

when I'm speaking into this

microphone, whether or not I'm expecting for the audience to

hear me and whether or

not I'm expecting for you to hear me and respond, we don't really,

we can't really

tell for sure whether or not there is genuine cause and effect apart from

revelation.

Yes.

How does revelation help us guarantee that there is genuine cause and

effect?

I think what Jake, Jake is asking you, Jake, is-

Which Jake? Yeah, we've got a lot of Jakes

... what, like, how do you know? What sources are you utilizing?

What frameworks?

Rational arguments.

Right, from-

No, rationally explain to me cause and effect then.

What? Right.

Right, exactly, but he's jumping from point to point, so-

No, you're-

Make any one-

Well, hold on

... rationally explain any one of them

... you're both maneuvering f- just fine, but I, I think you're also, like,

missing-

So I'll, I'll rationally explain the answer that's-

If I, if I go off of, if I-

... that's asking

... exactly. Now he's asking me to rationally explain

cause and effect-

Yes

... when the prompt is Islamic monotheism is true.

You don't see that that's-

No, no, I can walk through-

... a complete deviation from the topic?

... all the steps on this.

No.

No, it's not a deviation at all.

Because, well- ... because we started with r-

Oh my God

... like you said, it's not the Quran. Uh, Kirk- I can't say it properly.

You said it's not that. He said, "Okay, fine, I'll move on," right?

And then you said, uh, revelation, logic, so on and so forth.

He said-

Yeah

... and so he's, now he's walking through that,

and now we've moved to cause and

effect because you said the causation, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I think he's walking you through-

Yeah

... all of the things that you keep giving him,

he's walking through them with you.

He hasn't given, he has-

He's, he's trying to, but then you keep pushing the goalpost to

something else.

Okay.

Right?

Respectfully, what you're saying is absolutely delusional.

How this started off and how the entire prompt is going is

that he started off

telling me that in order to prove that Islamic monotheism is true,

I need to prove

every single claim of the Quran.

No, you didn't.

First starting out with-

You started with the Quran

... hold on a second. First starting out with I need to prove

why his claim about a

specific historical claim in the Quran is actually correct and not incorrect,

now I

need to explain to you why cause and effect relations exist completely

separate from revelation.

No, 'cause I went through all the steps.

So hold on. Stop. Let me work through this with you.

He made the presumption, it was a poor presumption,

but he made the presumption

that you were going, your i- ideology is based off of the Quran.

It's partly but not totally.

Okay.

So-

Well, hold on, because you just told him-

I, I believe in one God

... it's not

... I believe one, in one God in the way

that I just expressed completely

independent of the Quran, and the Quran confirms that same belief.

Okay. Mm, but why is that-

He's, yeah, he asked you that earlier-

But he's moved on to the first prong

... and you said it has nothing to do with it

... then he went to the second prong. No.

And now we're on the idea that there's no revelation.

Okay, respectfully, respectfully-

So I'm saying how do you get any of it without revelation?

Respectfully, you're confusing two things.

You're saying that I said it had nothing to do with it.

What I said had nothing to do with it is a specific historical claim in the

Quran

that has absolutely nothing to do whether or not Islam's conception of God is true.

Hold on, 'cause the-

This is pre-modern, post-modern thinking. It's, uh, you're doing ontology.

He's asking an epistemol- ontological question.

Yeah.

Yeah, so-

And I already explained to you the epistemology has nothing to do with every

nook

and cranny historical claim that's made in the Quran.

Well, no, no, no. So either-

But you've completely negated it.

Yeah, so the, so either-

Right?

I'm negating that aspect.

Like, but wait. The-

Yeah, the aspects that are relevant-

Hold on

... are the theology-

Jake

... in terms of who God is as a creator with his essence

and his attributes and

that. It's not, has nothing to do with history.

What he was asking was how do you know?

All right.

Right? And that's-

Here's what I'm gonna do. Here's what I'm gonna do.

Hold on a second.

This prompt-

I'm sorry. I think I'm running this right now,

and I'm trying to talk to you.

Yeah, and you're being very-

I'm trying to talk to you

... and, and what you're doing-

I am trying to talk to you.

Okay. You can talk-

Thank you

... and I'll just ignore what you say. Go ahead.

Okay. Then we can just shut it down and everybody-

Sure

... can go home.

Fine with me.

Okay. If you're gonna be like that, and you're not gonna respect the moderator

who

is trying to negotiate-

I don't, I don't respect somebody-

... with both of you-

I don't respect somebody who's trying to tell me the most absurd thing I ever

heard, which is that Islamic monotheism, monotheism is true as a prompt has to do

with whether or not Christ was crucified. It's absolutely retarded.

But he is trying to have-

And the fact that you're trying to defend that as a moderator-

I'm

sorry,