Discussion on Ukraine's Civil Society and Leadership

And that was the birth

of the new Ukraine.

I- is that... Was that, George, civil society in action?

You've been working on helping to build civil society, trying to build it,

often frustrated, uh, in the former Soviet Union, in the

Soviet Union. I know you started...

I first met you in Ukraine in 1990 when you began those efforts.

There were many years, I think, when it seemed it was all useless.

Um,

does it say something to you, teach you something-

Y-

... about open society, civil society building?

Well, well, yes, uh, uh, because basically i- in many ways,

uh, uh, I set up the foundation in Ukraine in

1990, um, uh, which is two years

before, uh, the independence of Ukraine. That was pa...

It, it was a, an offshoot of the, uh, uh,

foundation in Russia. You know, there's this, uh...

I set up, uh, um, a cultural initiative

foundation in, uh, in, uh, um,

in, in Ru- in, uh, the Soviet Union, uh,

in 1987. Uh, and then, uh,

uh, we built this branch in, in Ukraine

in, uh, 1990. Um,

and, and, uh, um,

the foundation... one of the found- the things that the foundation did, it

gave a lot of scholarships and, and, and, uh,

supported civil society. And, uh, the

maturity of civil society 25

years later is, to a large extent,

uh, uh, the work of the foundation.

Yeah, and I will just offer my own personal

testimony here.

It's actually amazing in Ukraine, the new

Ukrainian government, the new Ukrainian leadership,

everyone who I know in that group has been touched

somehow by open society and by

George... Like, literally, either people personally got a scholarship

or someone, you know, their wife got a scholarship.

It- it's a, a really remarkable thing.

Well, th- this is, uh, uh, uh, for me, uh, uh,

quite an experience, uh, to see this, and I, I

didn't realize actually, uh, uh,

how much, uh, how big an effect it has had over a

25-year period because those were students,

uh,

25 years later, they were leaders.

Um, so George, the way you describe Ukraine,

and you know that's where my own

sympathies lie also, um, is incredibly appealing.

It maybe is another one of these fantastical objects.

Yeah.

But not all Europeans agree with us.

No.

Um, the leader of your own homeland, Hungary, has

described Putin as a model, as a role model.

Uh, we have political leaders across Europe.

We have the Greeks right now making trips to Moscow.

We have, in France, uh, Marine Le Pen having close

contacts with Putin. What, what...

How do you explain this influence, this appeal that Putin has

in Europe?

Yeah. Well, uh, uh, I think I, I can take

a, a polit- a, a historical, uh, uh,

perspective because I was very much

involved in the, uh, the collapse of the

Soviet system. Uh, that was my debut,

uh, as a, what I call myself, uh, a

political philanthropist. Uh, and-