Questioning HIV and AIDS Research

The first time I really questioned it, I was working on a project

where we were measuring HIV in people's blood at this place called Specialty Laboratories in Santa Monica.

I was just a consultant there,

and I came in about three days a month, and we were working on that.

And at some point, we needed to re-up our grant

from the NIH to work on that, and I had to write it.

And so the first line of that was,

HIV is the probable cause of AIDS.

I wrote that, and then I said,

well, I need a paper,

some kind of scientific paper, to reference that statement.

Because when you make a statement like that, that's like a fact.

You need to say, here's how come I know that, right?

You put a little one if it's the first statement you've made, and

then you put down at the bottom of the paper, you have a one, and you say,

here's a paper by somebody that describes why that statement's true.

And so I said,

well, what's that? I don't even know.

I think about, what is that paper?

Who do I go to for that? And I looked around.

I asked a couple of virologists at that company, and they said,

no, you don't have to reference that.

I said, I have to reference that, because I don't know where that came from.

How do I know that?

And it turned out that nobody knew it.

There wasn't a scientific reference, like a paper

that somebody had submitted with experimental data in it, and like logical discussion,

and said, here's how come we know that HIV is the probable cause of AIDS.

There was nothing out there like that.

Can you talk about your experience when you met Luke Montagnier

for the first time, and you questioned him about his ability to get a reference for HIV,

since he is the one who Well,

by the time I met Luke Montagnier, I had met a lot of AIDS researchers at meetings,

and I had always gone up to them.

If they talked like they knew about HIV and AIDS, I always went up to them afterwards, and

I said, where can I find a scientific reference that

I can use for my, remember I said I had a sentence there,

it said HIV is the probable cause of AIDS, and I

needed to have that backed up by something before I could write it and submit it.

And I went around, I asked a whole lot of people, I said,

well, the people, you know, I can't find it.

First I looked for it, you know, just in computer searching kind of stuff like that,

but then I said, there's got to be somebody that knows this,

you go to experts and ask them.

And so I asked all these people, one after the other,

and none of them had it, none of them.

And I was getting really freaked about that.

That's when I first started saying, they don't know,

nobody really knows. This whole thing is a big sham, it's ridiculous.

But then finally, Montagnier came to a, there was a special little seminar down in San Diego

where an old friend of Robert Gallo's, Flossie Wongstahl, was opening up a department

of AIDS research down in San Diego, they had big, lots of money involved, federal money,

and they had Montagnier come there and give a talk,

and after that they had a little wine and cheese thing, and I went over to Montagnier afterwards, and I said,

Dr. Montagnier, I

have a, I can't find a reference,

like who,

I can't find a reference to go with the statement HIV is the probable cause of AIDS, I'm sure you can help me.

And he knew that he probably should be able to help me, and he said,

well, why don't you quote this new work,

and by new he meant like something that came out this year, this new work about a virus that can. kill monkeys

Or I think it was not monkeys. It was like

Something related to monkeys some kind of a baby a little ape

and and I had read that and I said that didn't it was Like supposedly gonna be a model system for studying And

he's that somebody had figured out some kind of retrovirus that passing it back and forth between various mammals

They could probably could finally put it into chimpanzees and kill them and it killed them in about a week And

it didn't kill them in any there was nothing like AIDS there, you know, it doesn't kill you in a week

This is totally ridiculous

None of the symptoms were the same and I said I said,

well, you know I read that paper and I didn't see any connection between that and AIDS

and I and asked and then I don't think that would be a

really that I wouldn't want to use that as a reference and

I Don't remember exactly what he said,

but I know he walked away.

Oh

No before he told me about that paper

He said why don't you use the NIH

like the the CDC report and I said

well I look at that and that was not a scientific paper.

And then he said what about this other thing

this this This like paper that had just come out

about a month before and and it a lot of fanfare associated with that paper

But it was total crap

It was like yeah, if you get two million dollars,

you can figure out how to kill a primate with a retrovirus.

So what?

Doesn't have anything to do with AIDS.

It didn't look like AIDS.

It didn't smell like AIDS.

It wasn't AIDS It was just like got a retrovirus that can kill a chimpanzee.

So what?

so I I

Didn't get any more out of him He walked away after that

and the people standing around by the way who were his colleagues

There looked at him like they were thinking he should come up with a better answer than that

But he couldn't and that's he just turned around and walked away.

I Really thought he'd have an answer.

I Really did. I mean that was my last I

was right at the edge of my faith in the system

But I thought Montagnier will know why he thinks HIV causes it and he'll tell me he'll say because of this study

You know, but he didn't have that

None of those guys have that and that's why they're so they're so weird,

you know That's why they don't want to say they don't want people like me walking up and asking them those kind of questions

And they're willing to like go to great lengths to prevent that

They're out on a limb.

I Wouldn't want to be there with them