Debate on English Identity, Ethnicity and the Census

Well, of course, but- Are you Black? I- if you called yourself Black because you wanted to, would that be acceptable?

To, to me? No. No, no. No, no, but what if you wanted to call yourself Black?

I don't understand why- Uh, what if... What, what's the answer to that?

The, the answer to that is I think that would be wrong, and I wouldn't describe myself as- Why? Why would it be wrong?

Because of the- Because you're not Black.

Yeah, but, but if you can be Black and English- But you're a woman ... you can be B- Could you call yourself a woman if you wanted to?

You are just... Look, you're picking, uh, on me- No, I'm, I'm asking you- ... and you're picking a fight. No, these are genuine questions.

No, no, but you're picking a fight. Words have meaning.

What... Why, why isn't... Why can't people have a choice?

Why can't... Why can't that be a choice? Could you choose to call yourself Black?

If I wanted to, I could. I don't think that would be right, and I wouldn't want to.

Oh, come on. You don't- I wouldn't want to.

Sure- Come on. I mean, can I just- Stuart, I wouldn't want to do that.

Can I s- do you know, if I- I don't think that's right.

But if you wanted to, you could. If, in the census, it would- Why could... Well, 'cause it...

Okay, yeah, of course you could, 'cause you can physically do so- So, hold on ... but it's a lie. So you can rep- you can represent the country for the football team and- Well, no, I can because I could be English as a citizen.

Right. We're talking about ethnicity here.

Yeah, but that, that is part of this as well, isn't it? I don't need to be ethnically English Yeah, but that, that is part of this as well, isn't it? I don't need to be ethnically English to play for the English football team.

So when- I need to be a citizen of England. So, hold on.

But how many, how many generations, for instance, does that then have to go through before- No, I, I- Is that forever?

No. Right now. Or is that- One generation ... one generation?

I am eth- I'm not ethnically English- So one- ... but I am English as a citizen.

So one generation. That's absolutely fine. Yeah.

So your children or your grandchildren could then describe themselves as ethnically, uh, English then.

So are you suggesting- Well, if they, if they continue... If I, I've, I, I- So are you sug- are you suggesting that it just lasts a number of generations?

Stuart, it's not that difficult. If I continued marrying Punjabis, 50 generations in they would not be Anglo-Saxon.

So Eng- But they would be English, citizens.

Yes. I under- Not ethnically English ...

I understand that. Right. What I'm saying is that I think people should have the choice to describe themselves on the census form as they see fit.

And I also believe that this particular bill is a good debating point.

Right. Well, I'm gonna call myself- And I think that's a right- ... a trans one-legged Black woman and say you are discriminating- I'm su- ... against me for disagreeing.

Well, you can put that in the census form then.

Do you know what I find deeply hypocritical?

Uh, if I was to stick my hair, uh, in braids hairstyle, many people would be apoplectic saying I am doing cultural appropriation.

There is a very one-sided dialogue, uh, when it comes to society, but when it's white English people, it's fair game.

Anyone can do anything. Uh, why do you think that that is, if indeed you share my view?

What do you make to all of that?